Transcription Of "Forgotten Tenor"
A Film By Abraham Ravett
Sound:
Music "Easy Living"
Telephone ringing.
Abraham:
Hi I'm calling area code (904)426-0696, is this the telephone number for Mr. Allen Eager? If it is, my name is Abraham Ravett, from Hampshire College Film and Photo program, I was referred to you by Ira Gitler. My number is area code (413)586-6588, it's Saturday the 16th at 11:45 a.m.,I'm calling in reference to a film that I am making on Wardell Gray, and I wanted to speak with you if it's possible and get some input from you, if you could call me back I would appreciate it. Thanks very much. Bye bye.
Music.
"I Cried For You"
Helen Humes on vocals
Now it's your turn to cry over me.
But every road has a turning and that's just one thing you're learning.
Yes, I cried for you.
What a fool I used to be, but I found two eyes just a little bit bluer.
I found a heart just a little bit truer.
I cried for you now it's your turn to cry over me.
Yes, I why I cried for you so it's your turn to cry over me baby.
Every road has a turning and that's just one thing your learning.
Yes I said it was there and I cried my eyes out.
What a fool I used to be, but I found two eyes just a little bit bluer,
I found a heart just a little bit truer,
yes I cried, I cried, Lord knows I almost died,
so it's your turn to cry over me."
Abraham:
Is there anything else that lingers in your mind about Wardell at all, now that you've looked, I mean, at these films a couple of times, what stays with you?
Eddie Bert:
Just that he was a great guy, but, I mean, that one story, the way I remember at the Flamingo Hotel, we're playing like I think two or three weeks there, at the Flamingo in Las Vegas and there was a dinner set we had to play. So, generally Benny was there but this one night Benny wasn't there and Benny had lent them a Bundy clarinet which is a plastic clarinet because on New Year's Eve at the Paramount Theatre Benny wanted to play his tenor, Wardell's tenor. So he said, "Look, I'll give you one of my clarinets and lend me your tenor and we'll play the show that way, you know, and we played the show that way. But then, Wardell ended up with his Bundy clarinet, which is, you know, a resinite, like a plastic clarinet, so anyway, this one night Benny didn't show up at the Flamingo for the dinner set, so Wardell got up in front of the band with the clarinet and made like he was Benny with the back problems and a few other things that Benny used to do and you know, just imitating him you know? But he didn't realize that Benny was in the audience, so Benny came running up on the stand and he fired him and he made him go through the kitchen again, with all his horns and Benny comes running after him through the kitchen saying "Give me my Bundy clarinet back". So I thought that was very funny. Of course he hired him back the next day, who's he going to get? You know, I mean, it was just a thing.
Abraham:
Of all the people that Benny had to hire at the time, why do you think he hired Wardell to play with him?
Eddie Bert:
Because he played good. Benny liked clean players.
Music.
Abraham:
Those questions again, or should I ask... You want to start with the first one, after all these years, what lingers with you about Wardell?
Clark Terry:
Yeah, o.k.
Abraham:
I'd like to ask you after all these years, what lingers with you about Wardell Gray?
Clark Terry:
Well the thing that lingers with me, after all these years, about Wardell, was his complete command of the instrument. Very few articulate people around on the saxophone today, who were as into it as much as Bones was, my pet name for Wardell was Bones, this was rather obvious, he was a rather not too well fleshed person. And I used to affectionately refer to him as Bones. And I always remember him as a rather dear friend, a close friend, a conscientious person. We stayed constantly in touch, we wrote each other all the time and we had a very very beautiful time with the Basie small group. Basie broke the band down to a small group from the big band. Basie got into little problems with the office and he had to work his way out of debt so the office cut the band out and put Basie in a small group context, which is Basie, himself and he had a bass player from the south, I think from Kentucky I think he was named Jimmy Lewis and the drummer was Gus Johnson, Freddy Green came along. We started out with a young saxophone player out of St. Louis named Bob Graf, whose playing was eventually taken over by Bones. And we recorded several things, as Basie's small group and of course before that Wardell, and a little bit after that, he was with the Basie big band. We had a lot of fun. I remember all of these things, they're all very outstanding in my memory because he was one of the few people at the time that kept close in contact with me. He was very religious about writing letters, he would write and the same thing, when I got a message from someone, someone told me in a gossiping way that, "Man, Wardell is using shit" (heroin) , and when I saw him again,and I said this to him I said "Man, somebody had the nerve to say to me that you were using shit", of course I laughed and he chuckled a little about it. However it hit home because he really was, and I wasn't aware of it and from that particular point on I never heard from him anymore. So that kind of squashed our relationship as far as correspondence is concerned. So I guess what it did, in reality, was make him realize that I was aware, his good buddy who he didn't want to know, that he was in that shape, had found out and he was a little bit embarrassed I think.
Abraham:
O.k., let's give it a shot. Let's just try it O.k. So let's start with, what have you got in front of you?
Dorothy Gray:
I have Chicago, Friday night.
Abraham:
Friday night?
Dorothy:
Front page.
Abraham:
Chicago, o.k. Let's do that.
Dorothy:
Dear spouse,
Belatedly, thanks for a very nice letter, in fact thanks for two very nice letters. I shall attempt to answer them as fully as possible. To start with, I love you my darling, and I find myself missing you very much. I can tell just how much I do miss you by my feeling, almost constant, of" alieninity", with a question mark. A sort of displaced condition that is not overwhelming, but strong enough for me to be uncomfortably aware of, but I comfort myself in that fact that the days seem to be going fairly fast and this week is almost up. Then one more week, a week from this Sunday, and the following day, barring anything unforseen, I shall be winging my way to you. Everything you said in your letters made me feel good and I'm proud to have you for my wife. I think ultimately how nice it would be to be with you. Our being together, you, Mickey and I, all working hard, studying, going to school, perfecting ourselves for one another. What a vast sense of accomplishment there will be in the atmosphere. I find myself unable to remember all these things that you mentioned in your letter so I've taken them out of their envelopes and opened them in front of me. And the first thing I see is your reference to Benny Carter. You tell him that my notice is in. And I am doing only two weeks with Basie here, and will finish up next Sunday and leave some time Monday. And tell him, if he gives that job to anyone else, I'll put a bomb under his house. I saw Ashby in Salt Lake City, and he told me that he was cutting out from Nat." Very drug". I told him I was cutting out too and he said that he and Jerry W. and the rest of the cats would be waiting for me. Baby, please call Benny and tell him that I will be there, and to count on it. That's it.
Abraham:
O.k. That was Chicago?
Dorothy:
That was Chicago.
Abraham:
O.K.
Abraham:
You were going to start with the question about Count Basie?
Jimmy Lewis:
Yeah.
Abraham:
O.K. And then, what recollections do you have of those sessions, what other recollections you have of Wardell, what kind of person, and what was it like playing with Wardell? O.K. Are you going to include that story about when his wife came into the club? What was her name, Dorothy?
Jimmy:
Yeah, that's right.
Abraham:
Are you going to include that?
Jimmy:
Yeah, I guess so, yeah.
Abraham:
O.K. The only other thought I had was, where was it that I wrote it down, maybe when we finish these, I just want to know, since that film, what happened to Freddie Green?
Jimmy:
He died too.
Abraham:
Yeah, and then what happened to Helen Humes?
Jimmy:
Oh, she's dead
Abraham:
I know, but do you remember when and how?
Jimmy:
Wardell, was such a nice guy to get along with in the band. He always kept everybody happy. You know? He liked to tell jokes. But he was very tender hearted, he would cry in a minute, you know? Little things could upset him. He was very serious about all his music too, he was, he liked everything to be just right, you know. And when he'd come on the bandstand, it was all business that's one thing. Before he'd come on the bandstand, he'd keep everybody happy telling jokes, you know, and ..but when he'd get to the bandstand, he was very serious about his music. That's what I found out about him, you know? Now I don't know what else I can say about it at that point.
Abraham:
That's good. O.K. You want to give me a slap, a little higher, a little higher. Good. O.K.
Jimmy:
O.K. now you want to know about Wardell Gray. His playing ability, he was a very relaxed player, he always knew where he was going. His tone, was very melodic, most of the time, unless he was playing something very fast or something like that. He used to seem to create as he went along, you know?, on his solos. You can always tell when something new pops into his mind while he's playing, because he'd always smile, you can see him smiling while he's playing his horn.
(Silence.)
You know I'd like to see him featured in a film, where he could really show off his talent. Really show it off, say, it was just the band playing in the background, and put him out front. I think, when I was with Basie in his big band, and Wardell was featured on a tune, Wardell he gets out and he plays the first chorus, and right in the middle of the thing he says, come on, let's play, let's play now. Now this is right while the recording was going, and he played that thing, he played his heart out man, he just played and it looked, he gave the whole band a lift because he had so much to offer you know? He tried to put everything in his tunes, so Basie would say let him go, he wasn't supposed to have maybe one or two choruses and he ended up playing five or six choruses of the same tune you know? Basie would call a tune, and he would listen to the tune, Clark Terry or somebody would be playing a solo, and he'd listen to the tune and then he'd come in with his interpretation of that tune and it would be altogether different. And most saxophone players used to follow him, you know. They'd say, well he's got such a good sound and he's this young, let's see what this guy has. So they'd always try to copy his style you know. Nobody really got to it, at that time.
Music. "I Cried For You"
Earl Van Riper :
We were playing with the band, the band was based in Illinois, but we used to play in Michigan and during the summer we would go around Bass Lake, Sturgis Michigan, Manistee, Vestaberg, Bennington Michigan and that`s when I first met Wardell, we were in this band. And when we first met, it was his imagination and his musical ideas on any given tune, he was just very gifted.
Abraham:
Could you give me an idea of what you mean by that, specifically?
Earl:
His ideas for improvisations on tunes. He used to have a way of playing one tune and another tune with corelated musical changes.
Abraham:
So did you recognize then, when he was a younger guy..
Earl:
Even then, even after all these years I know that a lot of musicians, because of his excellence and his playing and everything, say that there are very few that can surpass such a fertile imagination in improvising on a tune. Because he impressed Benny Goodman and he's a pretty hard man to impress. With such a vivid imagination you knew he was playing with small groups and Benny would show him off. And with Count Basie. I used to see him with several, different bands.
Abraham:
Could you give an example with a tune, what he would do that was so imaginative?
Earl:
Well, for instance, if he was playing "Honeysuckle Rose", I remember the first time I heard him do it in the groups, in the bridge he played" Humoresque", "Humoresque" was a classic. That's a classical piece of music. And he played "Honeysuckle Rose" just like, there's, unlimited source of ideas. And then later, of course, the way I looked at him was as a swinger, under certain circumstances like Dizzy Gillespie, what they started, he and Charlie Parker, they started the chords, the harmonic structures of old standard tunes and writing another melody off of these same chord tunes and you would have another tune. And before that, Wardell came into the style of what is now known as Be-Bop. Wardell is the first one I had heard, I'm not saying he was the first one to begin it, but he was the first that I heard doing it.
Art Farmer:
Testing one two three, testing one two three four five six.
Abraham:
Is that the level you'll be talking at? Let me take one more reading here. O.K. You can take your time, there's no rush. You can take your time. Can I sit on this chair?
Art:
I first met Wardell in Los Angeles in 1945 he was working with the Earl Hines orchestra and he came out to play at a place called the Lincoln Theatre. And I went around backstage and met him then. And that was just briefly. I didn't see him again until probably the early fifties, I guess it must have been around 1950 or 51, he came back to Los Angeles with the Benny Goodman orchestra. And he decided to settle in Los Angeles at that time. And that's when I really got to know him and we started to play various jobs together. Sometimes with Wardell Gray's quintet and sometimes with a group that was led by Dexter Gordon and Wardell Gray.
Abraham:
What about those liner notes?
Art:
He was a very wonderful person to work with of course. Wardell recorded for a label called "Prestige" records and that's the label that I recorded with Wardell on and these records have been reissued by "Prestige" or "Fantasy" records. And an English writer named Mark Gardner wrote the liner notes on it and he said Wardell was thought of as a father figure to the younger jazz musicians out in Los Angeles, at least some of them. I would say he was more like a big brother, he was more approachable than a father figure would be and not quite as stern. But he was very helpful and that's the way I felt about him and also reading Hampton Hawes' biography he felt the same way also since he had already been there although he was comparatively a young man. He'd already played with the top people in the business, such as Count Basie, Benny Goodman, Benny Carter, Earl Hines, Billy Eckstine to name a few. So he had the experience that we could learn from by talking to him and playing with him and listening and seeing how he conducted himself. He was a very honest and frank person, he would tell you what was wrong and what was right. Just a good guy to be with.
Phone Call:
Abraham:
Mr. Carter? Mr. Carter?
Benny Carter:
Hello?
Abraham:
This is Abraham Ravett I don't know if you remember I spoke with you last night, I hope I didn't call you too early. I've just been thinking last night, and I was wondering if it would be possible for me to ask you a couple of questions on the telephone maybe and if we could do a little interview on the telephone, would that be possible?
Mr. Carter:
Well, I don't know what you want but go on.
Abraham:
Well what I was interested, you mentioned that Wardell only played with you for a week and then you also told me that you thought he was a great player. I was wondering if you had any kind of thoughts at that time, in 1955, what was it about his playing that interested
Mr.Carter:
I can't analyze nor define people's playing. In fact I find that very silly, I mean the music speaks for itself and it's in the ears of the listener. The listener has to say what it means to him and what it sounds like to him, I really, I really can't comment on that.
Abraham:
O.K. I'm sorry to keep bothering about
Mr.Carter:
No, no, that's alright. No, No.
Abraham:
I'm feeling that maybe I shouldn't keep bothering you about this, I think you've been very kind so far in
Mr.Carter:
No, it's just that I don't have any deep knowledge of the man, you know, and there's nothing I can add to whatever you might have heard.
Abraham:
Oh. O.K. There's no recollections that you have of him in terms of
Mr.Carter:
You mean something anecdotal?
Abraham:
Yeah..
Mr.Carter:
No, I do not.
Abraham:
Yeah..yeah..
Mr.Carter:
It's a long time ago.
Abraham:
Yeah it sure is. O.K., once again, thanks again for your patience.
Mr.Carter:
Once again, good luck.
Abraham:
Bye.
Abraham:
O.K., so which question do you think you want to start with?
Dorothy:
Oh, I don't know. Would you..would you think about when I met him..I don't remember the year. You know, I only know it was the late forties.
Abraham:
O.K. why don't we start with that.
Dorothy:
Wait a minute. When I can tell you that where I met him, what comes after that?
Abraham:
We'll go on to the next question.
Dorothy:
Just like that?
Abraham:
If you want to stop there, yeah.
Dorothy:
Because there really isn't that much else to say about it.
Abraham:
O.K., well we can just go on from one question to the other until we, until you feel we can hone in on one particular one.
Dorothy:
As to what kind of person he was, that involves a lot, because he was interesting, studious, funny, he was a good cook, he was good with my daughter, he was a sports nut and a newspaper clipping fanatic. Friendly, warm, that's about enough. But he was wonderful. When he was playing, he always seemed to be a little embarrassed by the reception that he got. He was a little shy.
Abraham:
You mean he was surprised at how
Dorothy:
No, I don't think it was so much surprise but he loved the reception that he got but it still was a little embarrassing to him. If you know what I mean.
Abraham:
He was..humble.
Dorothy:
Yes, yes, he was. He was kind of into practical jokes too. I just thought about that when I went back over this other question. As for the tensions..I didn't like the long absences, but they were necessary of course. But there were times, like once he called me from Chicago to see if I wanted to see a Cubs (baseball) game. So I got a chance to go and join him for a while. And then once, I went to spend time, Christmas time with him in Indianapolis I think it was. Those were the good times but the long absences I never did like. But I'll tell you something, in a way it helped when he died because it was easier. But the person who loses their husband from a nine to five, you know, it's really different, but you can sort of play games with yourself when they're gone and back and gone for a long time you can just feel like they're on the road and it helps. Does that sound strange?
Abraham:
No, not at all.
Dorothy:
So, that was one of the things that softened it for me. Because I could play those games that he was just on the road.
Abraham:
So, above production costs you'd feel comfortable if I paid you three hundred dollars?
Jeri:
O.K. look, suppose it goes there and it goes there and your money starts getting bigger and bigger and bigger, so what do you say...
Abraham:
So what are you saying, you want a cut now?
Jeri:
I'm by myself, I need help.
Abraham:
Are you saying you want a percentage over every thousand dollars? (laughter)
Jeri:
Let's say of over every three thousand.
Abraham:
Over every three thousand I make you want three hundred dollars extra?
Jeri:
Well you can give me a little bit more but I mean
Abraham:
That's ten percent.
Jeri:
Well..
Abraham:
You want ten....
Jeri:
Wouldn't you do that, wait a minute, this could be you over here you know.
Abraham:
No, well, I couldn't agree to that ten percent because I'm going to talk to a lot of people..
Jeri:
But a lot of people, they're not me...
Abraham:
That's true.
Jeri:
There's a difference. A lot of people they`re not me. I knew the other part. They knew the music, I know the other part.
Abraham:
O.K.
Jeri:
You can talk to me about parts that the other people don't know.
Abraham:
Well, I don't really want you to reveal any kind of intimate details, I mean I'm really asking I think a kind of general type of question.
Jeri:
O.K. so you just want me to stop right there.
Abraham:
I think that a flat fee would be fair because I can't say a percentage..not knowing..
Jeri:
O.K. you say a flat fee is good. So it's going to be just a flat fee and if you make money and if it's going to be all over, well let's go back to the five then. That's a flat fee.
Abraham:
O.K., so a flat fee of five hundred dollars, if I make a profit of how much? If I make five hundred dollar profit do you want my only five hundred dollars?
Jeri:
No, no, no, I'm not that cold blooded get out of here. O.K. let's say five thousand.
Abraham:
O.k., if I make five thousand dollars, you want five hundred dollars. That's it. It's agreed.
Jeri:
Gentleman's agreement. You see this hand that I'm shaking...
Abraham:
You're going to kick my ass..
Jeri:
I will cut it off (laughing)
Abraham:
O.K., but Jeri, so now for five hundred dollars, now we made an agreement for five hundred dollars, do you want that in writing.
Jeri:
Yes.
Abraham:
O.K. So I'll send you a letter.
Jeri:
Please. I want to know where you live in case
Abraham:
O.K. so Jeri where do you want to start with, any particular question?
Jeri:
Anything you want.
Abraham:
O.K., so, let's see. o.k. Jeri let's start with the questions about after all these years what lingers with you about Wardell?
Jeri:
I think his honesty. He was very very quiet. He had no problems. He was just a nice dude as far as I'm concerned. We never argued or anything like that and just, he was wonderful. A good man, you know? That's all I can say. The ten years that we lived together we were just, it was just there's never been anybody like him as far as I'm concerned.
Abraham:
Could you talk a little bit about his music, his playing, you said he had a good ear..
Jeri:
I don't think that anybody could ever swing like Wardell. Wardell could, he could really play. And what makes it better, when you're a dancer, if you do four bars you know that they're swinging..I'll never forget once he said to me Jerry, if you ever dance, dance with Art Blakey playing drums because he plays, he swings. Don't dance with Max Roach because he`s, he is a percussionist and Wardell could hear, the things he could hear inside and bring it out, was phenomenal. He was just, he was just a great musician. Just, yeah, it don't mean a thing if you ain't got that swing and that's what Wardell had. He could swing. I better talk quick because that tape is running.
Abraham:
Let's stop for a minute.
Abraham:
Are you ready with the mic? You want to give me a slate? O.K.
Buddy De Franco:
Okay, just go on with it? We were talking about Wardell. Wardell's ability to swing musically, maybe even now, I don't know what the younger musicians talk about but we used to talk about swing, whether swing isn't on top of the beat, behind the beat right on the beat, but I think swing has nothing to do with behind the beat, in front of the beat, or on top of the beat or on the beat. I think it has everything to do with the combination of the inherent gut or soul of the musician playing. In other words, I've heard some very intense players and if you analyze for instance, the great John Coltrane, some of his ballads especially, where he would play a million notes across a very slow four, none of the notes would be on the beat or off the beat at any given time. It would be on, off, late, forwards, and yet the pulse, the inherent pulse from the soul of the player was there, of John Coltrane. And Wardell had just a natural way of swinging and he could play, he could fool with the time, he could play behind, or forward or on it and make certain statements but there, the way he made certain statements is the way that made him swing so to speak. I know so many school bands throughout the United States that say we're going to play like Count Basie, so our ensemble is going to play behind the beat, which is basically how Basie's band operated. The rhythm was steady and the ensemble played behind the beat. However, it's not so much that they played behind the beat, as they inferred that they were behind the beat and that the soul, the feeling was from the depth of the organism. Late, of course, behind, a little bit behind but you couldn't put it into a computer and say here's how far behind the beat Count Basie's band played. You see? There were a lot of times where they played right on the money though, maybe a couple of times they might have gone ahead a little. So sum it up, swing is like feeling, it's like the feeling of Jazz. Swing is the ambiguous mysterious element, it's either there or isn't there. And Wardell had it.
Music. "I Cried For You"
Abraham:
So Gus,should we talk a little bit about Wardell?
Gus Johnson:
I don't know that much about Wardell. We played together different places.
Abraham:
Do you remember playing with him?
Gus:
Sure.
Abraham:
Do you remember playing with him with Count Basie?
Gus:
Yeah. The seven pieces.
Abraham:
Yeah, the septet. What do you remember about Wardell from that group?
Gus:
A really beautiful tenor player.
Abraham:
What kind of person was he?
Gus:
Well, put it this way. I had a chance to know him I knew him quite a while. Excuse me. He liked to jam you know, he did like to jam because I played with him a lot of times...........
Abraham:
A lot of people talk about his ability to swing and what a great tenor player he was. Do you remember him playing? What kind of thoughts do you have about him now as a player?
Gus:
As a tenor player, he was a really good tenor player. We had jam sessions at the theater after we finished playing, it was more relaxed. Tenor horn, that's what he played with Basie. I myself, Charlie Parker, Wardell Gray, what's the bass player's name..
Abraham:
Jimmy Lewis?
Gus:
Jimmy Lewis, he was in there. Somebody else,
Abraham:
Gus, what kind of person was Wardell?
Gus:
Well, to me, he was a very nice person. We'd go and sit in on mostly any band that was playing he could sit in on.
Sound.
Abraham:
Do you remember when you heard that he died, do you remember what your response was, were you surprised?
Gus:
Yes I was. I was really surprised about that. I heard they found him in a ditch. I don't know anything else, just that they found him in a ditch. You know so many things go wrong nowadays. Puts you on edge. They all liked Wardell Gray, he was a different kind of player.
Abraham:
How do you mean by that? How was he different?
Gus:
Well in a lot of ways he swung more than Charlie Parker. I'd say they both were about the same. He played music for so long he didn't have to ask what key you're playing in, he'd just come on in and start playing in the key that the others played in. I'm trying to think of the club we used to go by and see the different musicians and play with them. For me, the truth is I liked Charlie Parker better, I'm not sure it's because I knew him longer than I did the other kid.
Music.
Abraham:
Hello, Mr. Weinstock, Good Afternoon. This is Abraham Ravett I'm calling from Florence, Massachusetts. I was referred to you by Art Farmer, who I spoke to several weeks ago. I'm in the process, the last couple of years, of making a film on Wardell Gray and he suggested that I might talk with you, if you might have some information or ideas or anecdotes about your relationship with him as the executive of the record company that you owned. So I'm just taking the liberty of calling you and finding out if you could be of some help to me.
Mr. Weinstock:
Well, I could try my best, but unfortunately I can't at this hour of the day think very much because I'm up from three in the morning doing my work.
Abraham:
Oh really, O.K.
Mr. Weinstock:
Actually I have dinner in a few more minutes and then I go to bed.
Abraham:
O.K., that's sounds good.
Mr. Weinstock:
I'd be very happy to wrack my brain. Wardell was a very fine person.
Abraham:
Well, that's been consistently what everyone's said so far.
Mr. Weinstock:
He was a great musician. You know, a transition from the..he was the first transition of the Lester Young into the Bird.
Abraham:
Yes, yes.
Mr. Weinstock:
I'd be very happy to say something but, what's a good time for you.
Abraham:
Well, I think I'm at your convenience. You tell me when would be the best time to reach you.
Mr. Weinstock:
Well, the best time for me is early in the morning, as early as you can make it.
Abraham:
You mean like six or seven?
Mr. Weinstock:
Yeah.
Abraham:
Oh good. I'll call you back.
Mr. Weinstock:
And I'll be happy to go through my discography and check the sessions we did and see what I can come up with.
Abraham:
O.K. That sounds good.
Mr. Weinstock:
You know I always think of Wardell because he was such a nice person and I really to this day enjoy the limited amount of records he made.
Abraham:
Yes. You produced him didn't you?
Mr. Weinstock:
Yeah.
Art Farmer:
I can't think of any stories about Wardell really. This crosses into how does Wardell influence your playing. I mean we could include one in the other.
Abraham:
Yes, let's do that. O.K.
Art:
To play with Wardell was like playing with the professor because he was an excellent musician and he always knew exactly what he was trying to do. And he was able to do it. And he was a wonderful example for us in Los Angeles because he was really doing what we wanted to do. And we could learn just by listening with him and to be on the same bandstand with him and to play after him you really had to put your best foot forward. I remember talking to him one day and at that time I wasn't working that much because of the scene in Los Angeles wasn't too much going on for Jazz. Actually I had a day job working in the Los Angeles County General Hospital. And if Wardell got a job where he could use me then I would take that or else I might work for the other people who liked what I was doing. But I remember telling him one day, I said you know if I could just work six months steady I would really have it all together. And he looked at me as if to say well, if you could do it that fast you're a better man than I am. He was really surprised that I had such a naive attitude about it, that it would just take six months. Of course he was completely right because what I was trying to do then is a never ending quest, and it's not six months or six years, it's a lifetime thing. And he knew that and I'm sure that he felt the same way himself . But for me to listen to him I felt that he was perfect already.
Buddy:
You're in the story, can I talk to you?
Abraham:
You don't have to hide the fact that I'm here
Buddy:
Shall I call you Abraham or Abe?
Abraham:
Anything you like.
Buddy:
"Honest Abe".
Abraham:
Could you tell us about his playing, what was it specifically, people talk about his ideas, that he was amazing in terms of his ideas about playing. Could you say something about that, what was it about his ideas?
Buddy:
Well, see, there again, my terminology would not be ideas because that infers that you assemble a variety and you package a variety of cliches of licks. Now we all use patterns, there's no question about that, but the patterns, I feel, are like the words in any language. When you write a book you use the same words as so and so does, the English language, but it's where you place them. How you place them. That comes from within. So it's not so much ideas as the fluency, the flow of his particular patterns that belonged to him and the way he played them. Naturally he was influenced with players it's obvious Coleman Hawkins and the "Bird" (Charlie Parker) like we all were. But we all kind of put that together and mixed it up and tried to bring out our own personality. And Wardell had his own personality in the way he played and so that was what we might consider ideas. But my concept wouldn't be so much of his ideas as the way he fluently played whatever came into his head, you see. And I consider Jazz, the best Jazz are the guys who can extemporaneously play unedited.
Music. "I Cried For You"
Patti Richards:
Such controversy. I mean the air just got electrified. And we sat down. He came off the bandstand he says you want to dance, because I was just a little smart kid, I say sure. We get halfway around the floor and there was this..and he says uh-oh and went back in ..because we were so used to joking back and forth so there were no limitations in our house. You could joke, you could laugh you could smack each other, whatever you wanted to do.
Ready?
Well I think I was probably fourteen or fifteen years old when Wardell was playing with Benny Carew at the Mayfair and they had morning dances for the factory workers. And I used to skip study hall in the morning, my father was a bartender at the bar so I knew all the ins and outs and I'd run over there to listen to that band. And at fifteen I had a wonderful crush on Wardell. I had a crush on his playing which is..even at fifteen I knew was out of the ordinary. Wardell was an out of the ordinary person, he was very very bright and very very funny. He could be very very sarcastic. He had a way, he knew who he was and he wasn't ashamed of who he was which made him pretty unique in those days. All the musicians, my mother being one, recognized his extraordinary talent and they were all..we had an open house. We had Black friends before it was chic to have Black friends. They were in and out of our house all the time, Wardell was in and out of our house,Paul Bryant, the Carews, I used to babysit with their children. So there was no Black or White situation it simply was a situation of who was the musician. That`s really the way we judged everyone was on their ability not on their color. Wardell's ability was above the average and he knew it because he used to rear back once in a while and say that he played so much better then what he heard, and why was he where he was. So I've never been sure because everybody that was alive then, are all dead, so I don't remember exactly how he went with Father Hines, but I do know that we did go down to the Paradise Theater immediately to see him and then he came back to Lansing. But I did get to see him after 1941 0r 42, I can't remember.
Teddy Edwards:
I came out here in, to Los Angeles in '44 with Ernie Field's orchestra and I stayed here. So he came out in '45 him and his wife Jeri, we lived together we were in the same house at the same time, we actually lived together on 24th street in the same rooming house. We were together and we were in the same rooming house and we practiced many many hours together. We played duets and single lines and put us on a pot of beans and make us some cornbread and go to work on the saxophone. Hour after hour. It was really great, in fact I practiced with him more than I ever practiced with anybody else by far. We'd had so many great moments with the guys out here like Sonny Chris and Hampton Hawes,Sammy Yacey(?),Gene Montgomery, Chuck Thompson the drummer, a lot of other guys like Roy Porter that we used to play with quite often, Clarence Jones, who was around here at the time. Shifty Henry another bass player, we all had a certain kind of camaraderie going on, Kenny Bright trumpet player, we'd spend our off time together, as well as our on the bandstand time.
Anita Gray McClelland:
It just seems like it would be more interesting if you were asking me questions and I was answering and you were sitting here beside me and somebody was filming it. This is just too dry, I don't like this. If you were asking me..you know..what else would you be doing..or you'd be doing this and this and this and then..because this is just too dumb..this is dumb. I want you to hear this radio interview yesterday.
Abraham:
I understand exactly what you're saying...
Anita:
Because that was good but this is just really..I sound like a big dummy.
Abraham:
One of the things I'm interested in as I mentioned to you is that I want to talk to people who had an involvement with him at a certain level. And I realize you want to keep it positive, but on another level there's also a reality to a life and not necessarily it all being rosy. So the fact is that your father, who was a well known musician who I'm interested in also was a person, a human being with foibles , with mistakes that he made. And on some level I think you've expressed to me your frustration and your anger that he left you and you never really knew him.
Anita:
But I'm so thankful that now I'm beginning to know who he was.
Abraham: Right. right. So I think, I don't know, I mean, it's up to you really to what degree you want to respond to that or not.
Anita:
I think it's important.
Abraham:
I think so too. (Sounds of Abraham coming into the camera frame making sure he's in the film). Can you see us now? You got it? Alright, so do you want to respond to that question? In the beginning you said it was important about not knowing your father in a sense of you only knew him for basically about two weeks. And what that leaves with you now, what is it about thirty-five forty years later.
Anita:
Although there is some anger about being left and not being able to live with my father, I do appreciate the fact that he and my mother made arrangements for me to live in good homes. First, his sister helped my grandmother to raise me and she did the best of everything she could for me. Good clothes, good schools. She helped me through the school of cosmetology and introduced me to first class entertainment by other people and was always there for me when she was living. So it helps some to know that someone in the family sort of made up for what he didn't do. So I feel really good about the rest of the family being there for me. But I do feel frustrated still and angry due to the fact that I didn't get the chance to spend very much time with him. Only short periods of time like back stage and going to the job sites wherever he played. Being too young and having to go through the conflict of being allowed to be in the place, a lot of times they wouldn't want any children in and he would say well if my daughter can't come in then I'm not going to play. So they would allow me to come in so I got quite a few chances to go in night clubs before I was even twelve years old. But still it wasn't like having a father and mother together to grow up with daily so I don't really feel good about that but I do feel good about the times I did get to spend with him. Such as the times learning to cook and watching him rehearse, I enjoyed watching his rehearsals and asking different questions. I used to try to get him to play melodies all the time, you know he would play the West Coast style which was progressive, called progressive Jazz and I didn't really understand it as a child and I'd always want to hear the melody and he told me I don't play melodies this is the way I play, this is the style I play.
Abraham:
Was he aware that he was a great player?
Anita:
Yes he was aware of it and he wouldn't mind letting you know. He used to stand in front of the mirror and practice the dexterity of his fingers and the reason he used the mirror was I guess so he could practice both backwards and forwards and still be able to play with the speed that he wanted to play. And so he spent a lot of time studying and writing.
Abraham:
So is it better now when I sit next to you like this?
Anita :
Oh is it...
Abraham:
It's on, yeah....
Patti:
Wardell was not only ahead of his time musically but he was ahead of his time as far as knowing who he was as a person. And absolutely refusing, I can remember instances, in the forties, Black people had to know their place and Wardell knew his, he knew who he was and he wasn't about to back off or be treated unfairly if he could possibly stop it. I remember one time we were all at a session and he was playing. And he came off the stand and he wanted to know if I wanted to dance. He and I had almost a relationship of people who are blood related because he teased me, he smacked me and he was such good friends with my parents that we got up and danced and about halfway around the floor he noticed the electricity because in the forties this was just not done. So he couldn't really be himself and neither could I. So the only time we could be happy was with just certain few musicians who all felt the same way about each other White or Black. It just, when they got together, when the families, and the families all got together, it was different. So I enjoyed his attitude because this was the attitude I was raised with. You didn't judge people by their color, you judged by what you found inside of them. So, I could see that Wardell in certain places would have a problem because he didn't have that better know your place attitude. And I'm not too sure he would have been quite vocal about it you know. And if not vocal to the point of really causing a lot of trouble he would have just walked away from the situation.
Dorothy:
New York. Shall I go on?
Abraham:
Yeah. What's the date on New York?
Dorothy:
October 19 1954.
Baby, so sorry honest that I've been goofing but it seems the farther I get from you the more alone and remote I feel. I'm so heartsick and lonely and so many things remind me of you. I want you to be here with me so badly. If you were here and everywhere with me this could all be enjoyable. I was so lonely in Baltimore I just felt like crying. I had a great big three room apartment that the club owner rents to the various bands that come through. And I just wandered from room to room "Mooning and pining" for you. Nobody ever came to visit me and I don't really know anybody in Baltimore and it was misery. I did get a chance to look out the window and dig Hurricane Hazel and even it was a letdown. Nowhere near as exciting as I figured it would be. Just a lot of wind and rain. Baby I want to come home so badly but I'm not until every last bill is paid and we do not owe anyone. I love you , I love you my darling please forgive me and please please for not writing or sending any money before now. I had to borrow some money from Madelaine to get to Baltimore. I hope she got it back before she left Detroit. I'd like to call you now but we just can't afford it on either end. I have this week off until Monday, then Monday for a week in Cleveland. After that I don't know. I was up in the office today and I told them I'd like to work farther west. I hope to go up again tomorrow to pick up some money which I am going to send you. And he said we'd discuss it further. Truly baby, if I thought I could make any kind of steady money in L.A. I'd come home tomorrow just to be with you, even arguing is better than this. If I was travelling with a band it would be a little different. But this lone wolfing it is a drag. If I was a different sort or not married to you I guess it would be O.K. but I feel too tied to you. Funny I haven't felt like writing before and I felt it would be a terrible chore but now all of a sudden the words are just pouring out. I'm going by and see Lebish tomorrow and see if we can work this income tax thing out and I'll let you know what happens. O.K.?
Abraham:
Yeah. What's that clicking?
Dorothy:
That's someone trying to get me. Just a moment.
Abraham:
You said something, if he was allowed to live, you want to say anything about that
Art:
Well, he came to an untimely end. He was still in his, I think he was still in his twenties or in his early thirties when he died. Maybe I shouldn't have said if he had been allowed to live but he certainly didn't die a natural death. Exactly what happened I don't know. And I've asked people and I haven't been able to get any unified answer. Some people say one thing and some people say another. So I just, I would not like to make any guesses about it. Because it would just be idle chatter. But I know when I last saw him I was leaving Los Angeles to go work with Lionel Hampton's band and he told me that he thought I was making a mistake going with Lionel Hampton because Lionel Hampton wasn't a band where you stood a chance to learn much about music because he was primarily oriented towards making a floor show type of thing. And Wardell knew that I was very serious about trying to learn music. But I told him that I understood what he was saying but I had to leave because the situation in Los Angeles wasn't fruitful. I was working in the County General Hospital and many people my age were getting involved with narcotics. And sort of drifting away from what they really wanted to do with their lives because there just wasn't the possibilities there and that's what I wanted to get away from. He was living out there, he had been travelling for the, for his life. I mean for the majority of the time of his life as a mature man and I think he wanted to get off the road for a while, but there wasn't really that much for him to do out there either.
Mr. Weinstock:
I just sat there in my office like a wing commander in the RAF in World War Two getting phone calls. I say so and so is down over the channel. Man, I used to get calls, Wardell is dead, Stan Hasselgard's dead, Fats Navarro dead, it was like a roll call when the RAF was undermanned and everyday whoever went up was dead, you know? And man, if I could convey this message that these great talents these people had a talent man, they were geniuses, you know from Charlie Parker, Wardell you name them, Fats Navarro,you name these great players, they had a god given talent that brought joy to the world and brought education to young musicians, these young people looked up to these people. And this curse, it's a curse to me, it was so destructive and every time I would hear that phone ringing and the secretary saying so and so is on the line it was some strange name from Las Vegas, where I think Wardell died, I don't even remember now, and I knew man that was it, someone else has gone down. From the forties, the fifties, the sixties, the seventies, the eighties, the nineties, the shit doesn't stop. You know. It just destroys these talents man. You know, destroys them.
Abraham:
Teddy could you give us a slate again? Were you on..o.k. Teddy could you just..before in our conversation we talked about the lifestyles of you and Wardell and some of your friends as young musicians..that you used to practice all day and practice all night and then go out and as a result, or one of the reasons was that drugs became part of your lifestyle.
Teddy:
Well it was a popular thing to be doing. You know. Maybe you can call it peer pressure to a degree, but it was a popular thing that a lot of us were doing it. But it was not the wise thing to be doing. And I really like the idea that a lot of these younger musicians coming up now they don't want any part of drugs. And I've really seen a lot of great people go down through drugs. Back in those days a lot musicians a lot of really good musicians thought it would make them play better, you know, they'd say so and so is a drug addict and he plays real good, but drugs don't make you play, practice is what makes you play. I don't care how many drugs you use, in that case anybody could use some drugs and go and be a genius on the saxophone or the trumpet, piano, something you know. It's practice that makes you play you know. So it was very foolish in many ways, to take a chance on your life and with drugs it's so stupid anyway because drugs take away, sometimes your appetite, can take away your health can take away, some of them take away your sex life, some of them take away your freedom. So they`re not that important. The price is too great. You know. And if you go up you got to come down. And then it's harder to go back up again and then it's worse when you come down again. So it's a losing battle any way you take it. I used to say that using heroin is like holding a mule by the tail you pull this way and you get weaker and the mule gets stronger and he pulls the other way. So that's the kind of situation it is.
Abraham:
Frank this is Abraham Ravett calling from Florence Massachusetts I wanted to get back to you about our conversation a few weeks ago about your engagement at the Iron Horse on the second. I live about a mile away and I just thought that maybe if you might have some time, either before or after your performance just to talk to you, not on film or tape as Ken suggested but maybe just on audio. If that's possible perhaps you can call me at area code 413© 586©6588 it's now five o'clock on this is the 23rd. Thanks very much bye bye.
Jeri:
You've been asking many questions yes..
Abraham:
O.K. Jeri what about the notion about all the stories that existed about how Wardell died? Could you say something about that?
Jeri:
Well I don't think the stories that people have been talking about really knew. It was a bad death. Well I just want to say that Wardell died from a broken neck. He didn't die from overdose of drugs, he died because he was left in the desert with his neck broken. And that's about all I can say.
Abraham:
You told me a couple of stories, some anecdotes about what Count Basie said about Wardell that no one can fill his chair.
Jeri:
He came to me and said to me Jeri, nobody will ever fill Wardell's chair. And that knocked me out, I mean because there was Frank West and Frank Foster and Eddie LockJaw Davis and all that. For him to say that, that really kind of knocked me out and I was telling you also about how when I was dancing at Small's Paradise, and he came into the club, and the wire got out ahead of him that he was with Benny Goodman and he said" I wish somebody would ask me is Benny Goodman with me". And I'll never forget that because I never would have thought of that. I don't remember how long he stayed because when I came back he wasn't with Benny Goodman no more.
Eddie Bert:
Level o.K.? is that a good level?
Abraham:
O.K. what I would like is if you can just recall that footage that you shot, you know those eight millimeter movies. What are your recollections from them? Where were they shot and what kind of memories now, we're talking about all this almost thirty years later, what do you remember about that footage and also specifically maybe about Wardell?
Eddie Bert:
Well, it seems to me that this is after we had finished playing in Hollywood and we were going back towards the east coast and the first shot in the bus is somewhere in between ..oh I know where that was, that shot of Clyde Lombardi was Elko Nevada, because we were working there that night. So the shot of the sign with Clyde Lombardi is Elko Nevada on the way coming back from Hollywood we were going now to the east coast. The shot of the airplane is an airport in Boulder Colorado, we had to take propeller plane somewhere I don't know I'd have to look it up where we went but the airport was in Boulder Colorado I remember that. And let's see, the last shot, well that's again on the bus going towards St. Louis.
Abraham:
Yeah. What do you remember about Wardell? What kind of memories do you have now working with him?
Eddie Bert:
Well he was a very happy go lucky guy and like you can see from the film he was always bouncing around playing jokes and doing a lot of things like that. Really a great guy, he was real friendly, just a great guy and a great player.
Abraham:
So there's a great picture in the Yale collection of the band about to take off on another trip in an airplane and I think if I'm not mistaken, he's the only Afro-American in the whole group right? Do you think there was any tension for him about that in the band, any issues as far as racism is concerned about him being the only Black American in the group, were there any issues like that do you think?
Eddie Bert:
No, not that I know of. In other words musicians, they see you as what comes out of the horn it doesn't make any difference about that other thing, it has nothing to do with anything at all.
Abraham:
But he experienced it when he was working right? I mean, in the forties and fifties. I mean there's a story that Clark Terry tells me that he the Count Basie Sectet had a show in Las Vegas, they were broadcast in neon lights but they had to go through the kitchen door in order to get on to the show. He must have experienced lots of tensions about being a Black American in this culture at the time.
Eddie Bert:
Well I only knew Wardell in Benny's band and I didn't see any of that happening. That I know of. But we all had to go through the kitchen. I mean, the band had to go through the kitchen, I'm still doing that you know. No matter what color you are, has nothing to do with it. You're a musician, go through the kitchen.
Abraham:
What kind of tensions do you think yourself or Wardell experienced about being on the road all the time in terms of trying to have a family and trying to maintain some kind of connection with the family. Can you talk little bit about that at all?
Eddie Bert:
It's very hard, in fact, when we went to the west coast, Benny told us we were going to be there for six months. So a lot of guys subletted their apartments and brought their families out to California. I brought my family out. And we did six weeks at the Palladium and he says Oh, I'm going to Lake Mead, I'm going fishing for two weeks there'll be no salary and then when I come back I'm going, we're going up the west coast and back down and then to the east coast. So everybody said but what happened to the six months and what happened to the salary I mean. So he gave us a couple of record days about three or four record dates in those two weeks to make up for the lost salary. But three guys quit right away. In other words he didn't keep his word so when we got back east, Clyde and I quit to stay with our families. It's very hard to keep a family life you know. But you have to keep leaving bands, that's why I played with so many bands. I kept leaving them and going back to different other bands you know that kind of stuff. You just have to juggle your gigs you know and try to stay home as much as you can. It's not easy.
Abraham:
Hi is this the residence of Dodo Marmarosa? Hi, this is Abraham Ravett from Hampshire College in Amherst Massachusetts, I wonder if you finally received my letter.
Dodo:
Yes, I think I did. If you hold on a minute I'll have you talk to him. He's sleeping I don't know whether I can get him up. Abraham:
No, no I can call back at another time. What would be convenient?
Dodo Marmarosa:
Well, tomorrow he has a doctor's appointment so he'll be gone most of the day tomorrow. So I don't know, maybe, I don't know.
Abraham:
You think later on today you think?
Dodo:
Well, you can try later on today.
Abraham:
Okay. And otherwise, is the morning better or the afternoon?
Dodo:
Afternoon is always better than the morning.
Abraham:
So afternoon's are better.
Dodo:
Yeah.
Abraham:
O.K. thank you and I keep speaking to you who am I speaking to?
Dodo:
I'm his sister Doris.
Abraham:
You're his sister. Okay. So, I'll call again. Thank you bye bye.
Abraham:
Teddy, when we talked before you mentioned your own version of what you knew about how he died. Could you share that with us I mean..
Teddy:
Of course. Well we were working with Benny Carter's orchestra in Las Vegas there was a big club that the hotel had built on the west side of Las Vegas which is in the Black inhabited part of town. In fact they used to call it the Iron Curtain because Vegas was very segregated during that period up til the middle fifties. It loosened up after that period more or less. And we were playing for the production ,Clarence Robinson was the producer, Benny Carter was the band leader and we had finished playing the first show the night of his death. Prior to his death or whatever. And we were standing backstage talking about our good old times in Detroit with the baritone saxophone player Joel Grant and the trumpet player John Anderson. And some of the stagehands. He was telling the story about what a great band we had and everything. And in the meantime he's waiting for Teddy Hale this great tap dancer to let him know when Teddy's girlfriend came back from Los Angeles. She had flown to Los Angeles to pick up the heroin. And so finally Teddy came in and waved to him, beckoned to him, and so we broke up the conversation and so we were walking on back out the stage door and he and Teddy Hale were walking briskly around this Foster Freeze ice cream deal there, which was close to the parking lot of the Moulin Rouge, and John Anderson and I were the last two to see him leave the hotel. So when he didn't show for the second show I said that something is drastically wrong because Las Vegas at that time, Black people weren't allowed to go into the places on the Sunset strip, on the Vegas strip rather, Las Vegas strip, and so he had to be in some form of trouble. Either in the hospital or in jail or dead. You know when he didn't show for the second show. The third show he still didn't show. So Benny Carter told me to put his horn in the case. So I put his horn in his case and Benny took his horn with him. So the next day I went up on D Street, my wife and I were really curious about why he didn't show. My wife was a dancer in the show, Jeannie Thompson, that was her stage name. And so we went up on D Street to see what we could find out, around about 2 o'clock in the afternoon. So we saw Teddy Hale and his girlfriend and so we said what happened, what happened to you guys? Teddy, his girlfriend was getting ready to say something and Teddy closed her mouth up with his eyes with the look that he gave her. And so I could tell that something really strong had happened. So he says Hi man, that Wardell he's wild he's wild we dropped him off back at the parking lot you know. So we accepted his story at the time, but then later on, later that afternoon when they found Wardell out in the desert, he finally said that Wardell slid off the bed, he "o.d'd" (overdose) and he slid off the bed and that's when he broke his neck. And I said, wait that doesn't read too well because I knew the beds that they were using, we were sleeping in the same kind of apartments, same kind of beds you know. And the bed couldn't of been over say, 15 inches off the floor. So I said, wow, that's kind of far-fetched because if you had "od'd" you have no resistance in your body and you're not going to break your neck too easily by sliding off of a bed 15 inches from the floor you know. Still, but my conclusion was that when he "od'd" they panicked and took him out in the desert and dumped him and that's probably how his neck was broken was when they dumped him out of the car. So it was a very sad moment it was a big loss he was definitely making big marks in his career, a fantastic person read a lot in fact every morning he would buy the newspaper and take it home with him before he went home, he would always get the morning newspaper you know. And he read it..you running out of film?
Abraham:
What kind of sacrifices do you think he made as a working travelling musician?
Clark:
Well he made the same kind of sacrifices that we all did you know in those days. We were more or less relegated to the indignities that we all had to suffer from travelling being Black musicians you know. We, they often, we were travelling to remote parts of world and the south, not even the south but even the eastern and northern states we were segregated against, we couldn't stay in the major hotels. So this is one of the things that he was subjected to, like the rest of us. But we made the best of it and many times we laughed about it you know, which is of course the thing we learned from people in the deep south, the way they managed to survive was to laugh in the face of danger and hardship. Keep steppin' which is the name of the game.
Abraham:
What I'd like to do, if I could remind you
Teddy:
You'd like me to look at the camera?
Abraham:
It's alright if you don't you don't. The other thing I wanted to ask you in a conversation that I had with another contemporary tenor player , he said that the reason why someone like Wardell isn't appreciated or isn't known by the larger general public is because of the inherent racism in this country.
Teddy:
Oh that is very much a part of the situation in fact it hasn't ceased. It still goes on you know. Well,he had an opportunity to make some fine moves but doesn't matter, we know another lesser player of another paint job (that means of another color) who got much further than we did, guys who used to come down and studied, learnin how to play on the bandstand,back in Central Avenue days became multi-millionaires and we're still around scratching you know. We saw all these things happen. But....we've been living with that demon all our lives you know. From childhood. You know. So you deal with it and make it you know, work your thing around all of that. Like I always tell people that the Black people in America have six senses because that other sense has to deal with that monster out there which is this racial prejudice. The minute you walk out the door you know that monster is out there. You might not look it in the eyes but subconsciously you know he's out there. And it could block you out many different ways you know. By the same token you know there are a lot of good people out there you know, or else we'd be back in slavery if it wasn't a lot of good people out there that respect your abilities and make moves for you, or help you make moves or because it's important that you make moves you know, it's real ironic that you have to go out of the country to get respected for our work you know. You out of film already, just like that huh?
Dorothy:
They're gone right now, they can't believe I'm not answering the phone.
Abraham:
Persistent aren't they?
Dorothy:
Yeah right, because they know that I'm here.
Abraham:
Right, got you.
Dorothy:
O.K. So,
Toronto. November 8, 1954.
Well my darling here I am in Toronto for a week and really lonesome. I don't know, really close style, anyone here. And all I do is stay here in my room I read and go downstairs to the bar and drink beer. I thought I'd be here for two weeks but it's only for one then I'm going back to Detroit where I have arranged to work four days next week starting the 25th for the weekend. So next week won't be a blank like those last past two. Then I think to Boston on the 29th for a week. Then we just set to the Beehive on the 10th for two weeks which will take me up to Christmas Eve. Saul wants to keep me through the holidays but Jim Flemming says no. He says he can put me on some weekend one nighters that will pay more than over the holidays. Saul's only paying $225. But baby I've got to take these things not only to finish up our bills but to get the Christmas presents I want to give especially yours. Don't fret dearest but know that I want to be home for the holidays but this is necessity. This is the first Christmas in some years now that we won't be together but I'll make it up to you I promise. I love you baby know that too. I'm sending you one hundred dollars at the end of the week, tell Helly and Neil I'm sorry and I'll try to see it doesn't happen again. ..Let's see the rest I don't think you'd need.
Abraham:
O.K. Good.
Abraham:
So Jeri, why do you think that Wardell isn't recognized and known as much as perhaps other players of his generation. I mean he was such a great player, what do you think is the reason for that?
Jeri:
I think it's the time. They weren't doing many recordings then and you don't have too much of Lester Young recordings. You don't have too many of Chu Berry's recordings. I think the time was bad for Wardell. They just weren't recording at the time. And I don't remember if he was strong enough for people just to pick him out and say we're going to do an album here or something like that, at that time. And it was just not the right time and he didn't live long enough for him to get his own groups and record and to say something. He died too young, he died too fast to be completely recognized because I still don't think there was anybody that swung like him. I mean you had your Paul Quinichette but Wardell could play. It just was bad timing. He didn't live long enough for people to really know this man. Because he was fantastic. Playing-wise, as a human being, he was just a nice nice dude. That's all I can say. Just tragic that he died the way he did. Because right now if he was alive he'd still be playing as good or better. The wisdom would have been there and everything. Too much too soon I guess he just died too quick. It's tragic.
Abraham:
Can you talk a little bit more about that wisdom. When you say that wisdom, what are you referring to?
Jeri:
He was a perfectionist as far as his music was concerned. Like I said, Wardell could play,he could hear paint dry. He knew where he was coming from and sometimes it's amazing to listen to his sound and the way he would play something it would all come out from here. I mean I don't see how he could think so fast to get the, what he was talking about coming out of that horn. I mean he was just, he was too much. He was just too much.
Art:
Wardell didn't influence my playing in the way that people think one influences another player which is usually that you copy what you here. I never copied a note that I heard Wardell play but he influenced my playing in striving for excellence because he was a very good player he played his ideas, he expressed himself very well and being able to hear him play well then that set a certain standard that I still go by. He was very strong in melodic content and very strong in rhythm. He had a good natural swing to him which it would be wonderful if I could ever get that but I don't' think that's ever going to happen. But I really love the way his lines just flowed and nothing sounds strained. It was never pressing it was just a natural flow. And it was just dancing you know, the notes just danced. If you saw the notes animated they would just be some dancing notes on the screen. So that's about all I can say for his influence. What lingers with me about Wardell is from that time, from that historical time, like in the fifties, in the early fifties or the late forties, the music that we were playing then we thought that the music would sooner or later be accepted by the general public. After being here many years later I see, I feel now that the music never will be accepted by the general public but it still lives and thrives in spite of that. Which is a sign of how strong the music is. Wardell was the person living also in a time where we didn't have any idea of how much money could be made in this kind of music or in music in general. We were really more oriented (knocking on door) Yes,
Abraham:
I'll get it.
Art:
Probably wants to get in the mini-bar. You can tell him to come back.
Abraham:
Tell him to come back? In ten minutes?
Art:
Yeah.
Abraham:
Could you come back in ten minutes?
Abraham:
Gus, is there anything else that you remember about Wardell at all?
Gus:
This is all I know about him. What little bit that was. He was a good musician.